Note. During the December Solidarity Tour 2006 VSC had the privilege to attend a conference led by Haiman El Troudi on the specific theme of 21st Century Socialism at the International Miranda Center in Caracas. We publish this interview since it covers much of the ground and reflects what we learned.

Haiman El Troudi (R) & Andy Goodall VSC (L)

“Domestic private capital has diminished in the shadow of state oil income and has been extremely speculative. Many public companies are acting like capitalists. They contract cooperatives and exploit them.”

-Is 21st Century Socialism just another slogan, a way of inflaming the debate, a justification to remain in power?

-It’s a matter of a national project which is being constructed for some time now, according to Haiman El Troudi, ex presidential Chief of Staff and author of seven books with an eighth on the way – Being a capitalist is a bad business – in which he delineates and profiles the ideological sense of this revolution.

 “Without going back to years previous to the arrival of President Chavez in power (1998) it must be emphasized that there was also a process of  constructing  proposals around a debate where the Venezuelan left had a lot to say.”

On a personal level this systems engineer, planner and director of the International Miranda Center, maintains that from its very beginnings the Bolivarian government has been implementing public policies and taking actions which appear to be socialist. Therefore, there is no reason to “label or stigmatize” them now. They were social measures with a profound content of social inclusion which, to all intents and purposes, were oriented towards the left.

-On which countries are these experiences modeled?

-They’re Venezuelan. Nevertheless, we will take the positive from other global experiences which may be applicable in Venezuela, before adapting them.

-From Cuba, for example?

-Above all we take the example of dignity and base each social action on integral human development, that is to say, the construction of a new society. The average Cuban is educated to high school level and the Cubans are culturally and intellectually some of the most advanced in the world. This revolution has half its population in classrooms and the idea is to make a qualitative leap which will allow the human being to develop its full potential.

-And the European or Soviet models?

-The welfare state which the European workers movements developed is something which we will have to look at very closely. This is because we want to guarantee a system of social protection which goes much further than the policies of social inclusion. Each citizen must have security in old age and in vulnerable moments or when unemployed.

Almost all aspects of the Soviet model are reproachable except for some specific experiences, such as the intervention of workers in the running of companies.

-How would you define this Venezuelan socialism?

-Let me start by saying what it will not be. This will allow us to look at the mistakes made in other countries and why the socialist model of the 20^th Century failed. We do not want totalitarian practices, excessive centralism; we do not want to repeat the heinous experience of limiting the democratic process for the population; we want people to contribute in decision making; we do not want to repeat the practice of state capitalism where the State intervenes in absolutely all economic activity from the manufacture of the most basic utensils to the extraction of raw materials and the generation of energy.

-But we are already seeing a large part of this. A State involved in all economic activity. Are we already in state capitalism?

-I do not agree with that. We are in a process of transition. To reach state capitalism a lot of water would have to flow under the bridge. The Bolivarian government has simply administered the legacy of the Fourth Republic, except for some institutions it has created. Is it the case that Chavez nationalized the oil industry or the Venezuelan Guyana Company? The State as such was already in place. What has been done is to redistribute the oil income. Almost 45% of the budget for public investment for 2007 is aimed at social programs. 

-So 21^st Century Socialism is PDVSA?

-No, not at all. Socialism is that in which all people receive what they require to fulfill their real needs and give back to society what they can according to their capabilities. It’s a balanced relationship.

-The State is in everything. In the setting up of new companies. All or the majority of the shares belong to the State.

-I invite you to do more research. There are at least one thousand companies articulated around the policy of “Into the Factory” with the Ministry of Light Industry and Commerce. These companies have accepted the format of being Companies of Social Production. However, the ownership of all strategic activity must be controlled by the State. Mining and the hydrocarbons industry, the generation of raw materials must be in the hands of the State. Neither the air nor water can be privatized.

-And the land?

-What we are doing with the land is the same as capitalist countries did using agrarian reform. The State intervenes to assure social benefits for the population.

-What will be the role of private property?

-This debate has not been resolved yet. If we discuss this issue we will come to the conclusion that both capitalism and socialism have failed. This cannot be debated right now. The process will say what will be the best form of private property and the means of production; perhaps it will be a mixed economy.

-It looks as if there is a preponderance of attracting foreign capital rather than supporting domestic capital.

-What has happened is that domestic private capital has diminished in the shadow of the state oil income and has been extremely speculative. It normally invests in the banks, in infrastructure and in offering services to the oil industry. We are seeing state investments with foreign capital which the government has attracted. This has been oriented towards the production of goods and services which must be produced in the country to avoid imports.

Our economy is eclectic since it responds to both the market and the State. In this transition we must speak about a National Production Plan which we do not yet have.

Central planning is a key element of socialism. It is important to know how the national accounts are, what is being produced in the country, what is being imported and what our potential is. We have to take a look at the actions of the state companies, since many are acting like capitalist companies. They contract services from cooperatives, exploit them and use them as contract labor.

Both state and private industry has to be brought into line in this context.

Interview by Mariela León/ El Universal, Caracas. 07/01/2007